The following is a transcript of our podcast conversation with Sarah Wilkins and Xiao Wang. You can listen to the full episode on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.
Sarah Wilkins
Hello and welcome to Humans Beyond Resources, an HR podcast by Reverb where we cover topics from culture to compliance. Reverb believes that every decision a leader makes reverberates throughout the organization, from hiring your first employee to training your entire workforce. We believe in building healthy, inclusive cultures that engage your team. I’m your host, Sarah Wilkins. Thank you to our Humans Beyond Resources podcast sponsors, Parker Smith & Feek, AHT, and Joshua Brittingham of Carney, Badley & Spelman.
Today I have Xiao Wang, the co -founder and CEO of Boundless. Boundless is an immigration technology firm that helps families and businesses navigate the U .S. immigration system more confidently, rapidly, and affordably. Xiao lives in Seattle with his wife, dog, and delightful two – and four -year -old sons. Welcome, Xiao. Thanks for being here. So glad to be here. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. So let’s dive in. First, will you start by sharing more about yourself and the mission of Boundless?
Xiao Wang
Yeah. My name is Xiao Wang, and I’m the co -founder and CEO of Boundless, where a Seattle -based startup that is really focused on helping everyone, so families and businesses, navigate the U .S. immigration system more confidently, rapidly, and affordably than before. I’m personally an immigrant from China, and so I came here when I was relatively young, and I’ve watched the journey that my family’s gone through, right, from between how do we obtain the right to stay in this country to then how do we get the right to work in this country to then later on, you know, becoming a person that residents and helping them through the naturalization process. And through all of this, not only do we spend a significant amount of money on immigration lawyers, but also there’s just no clarity and transparency into what’s going to happen and how it’s going to work and what’s next, which means that, just like us, you millions of families in this country are stuck in purgatory for sometimes up to decades to be able to even have the shot at achieving their American dream here.
Sarah Wilkins
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing your story and for the mission of Boundless and reading your testimonials on your website. I see how big of an impact you make on individuals and families.
Xiao Wang
Yeah, I’m sure you talk to a lot of company leaders about this. It’s like, you know, there comes a point in life when you recognize there’s a problem that’s so deep that you can’t help but try to solve it. And so for me, you know, by the time we started Boundless, this is over seven years ago now, I had learned so much about the problem from interviewing hundreds of families and lawyers and government experts and folks involved in the communities that there was nothing that we’d be able to, not only keep me away from the problem, but it’s like, I couldn’t help, but try to solve this problem. And ultimately, it’s not just about what we do, but hopefully we can also set the stage for a whole cohort of companies that can show that you can both do good and do well at the same time, serving populations of people that have previously been overlooked.
Sarah Wilkins
Yeah, absolutely. And into the next topic, you started out supporting individuals or kind of just focusing on the individuals going through the immigration process at Boundless, but you’ve recently added on services for businesses to provide immigration and visa support. And I, speaking with clients, know that we’re always running into questions related to that and navigating it you know, is really hard from a business perspective as well. So, yeah, can you tell me a little bit more about what led to that? Obviously, there’s probably a need. But yeah, anything else in particular you want to share on that front?
Xiao Wang
Yeah, ultimately, this has always been part of our mission around how can we simplify this entire I would call it broken process, right? And if you think about this a lot where if you were to put anyone from 1989 as the year I came to America. And if you put anyone from 1989 to today in 2024, they would be blown away by all of the changes and improvements and innovations. Like the fact that we’re talking here today, right? Sitting in different rooms and being able to see each other and hear each other is something that has totally changed our way of life, right? And that everything looks different, except if you’re trying to fill out an immigration like application. With the only exception may be that now you can use email instead of the fax machines or snail mail, but the aspect and the journey and the process and the questions and the people that you use and the support that you have is exactly the same as over 30 years ago, which boggles my mind. As a product person, as a data person, as a technologist, as an entrepreneur, how is it possible that this whole system hasn’t changed? and the only things that really, that are different from the late 80s are that fees have gone up significantly and that there are five times as many immigration attorneys. And so it’s like someone is winning and it’s not companies, it’s not families, it’s not individuals. So I always wanted to tackle this entire structure in this entire industry. Now, with every sort of early stage startup, you have to focus or else you won’t be able to survive. So our initial starting point was on family. So how do we reunite loved ones at its core, right? If you have people that you’ve fallen in love, you want to keep your loved one in this country, or you want to join them in the U .S. And throughout this whole time, like as we have helped, you know, first thousands, then tens of thousands, now over a hundred thousand families, is a core part of their achieving their American dream. And the reason they came here for a better life is work. And we never had any work -related products or services before. And it was just like, okay, good luck. Here’s some generic resources about what it’s like to navigate the work visa and then the employment -based immigration system. And that was always something that was just felt lacking in this journey, right? you come here, like everyone’s story is different, but you think of, you know, you coming here first for, you know, as a student or as a visitor, you fall in love with someone, you fall in love with this country, you get a job or you graduate and you get a job. And then you, and it’s, everything is intertwined in someone’s life. And what we really want to do is be able to facilitate like folks to like live the life of their dreams. And so when there was, you know, I met the founder and CEO of Bridge a number of years back at a conference that we were both part of. And it always struck me that they were approaching this problem the same way that we were, but on the business side, right? So it’s a group of people who are non -attorneys who felt that there is a real need here and how can we use technology first to streamline this terribly opaque and terrifying process in general. And how do we make it simpler? How do we make it easy? how do we make it an enjoyable experience, right? Like the, yeah, the MPS score in this industry is notoriously bad. And so how can we, and so the fact that they were able to have MPS in the 60s or 70s, a lot of like, you know, Apple level experiences really stood out to me. And so I’ve been wanting to partner with them, work with them for a number of years now. And so the ability to actually become one company was something that was really exciting for us to be able to now have similarly minded, you know, leaders be able to tackle this problem together.
Sarah Wilkins
Yeah, absolutely. So great you found, you know, a very similar company doing, you know, what you were hoping to do and to be able to merge together and kind of be able to solve all those challenges, I think is great. So, you know, I think some companies, you know, shy away from sponsorships, visa sponsorships because of how complex it is. But yeah, what are some benefits that they should consider? And obviously, if there’s resources like yourself to help through the process, you know, take away some of those challenges of going through that process.
Xiao Wang
This is the part I get really excited about, because it’s, you know, one of the core parts is like, hey, how can we unlock talent in this country? And I, you know, I watch, you know, my parents, when we’re going, like they were on H -1B visas, and we were in Tempe, Arizona. And let’s just say there aren’t a lot of employers in Tempe, Arizona, that are willing to sponsor immigrants. And so we are very limited in what jobs, what companies, what avenues they were able to pursue. And it wasn’t until we got our green cards that like a lot more options became available to myself and my family. And I’ve always thought like, hey, well, as an economist, it’s like, this makes no sense. Like there are people with skills who should be at jobs that need those skills. Now, why is there such barriers that keep that from happening? And so much, you know, when you think about like benefits, right, it’s like, you know, immigrants are 18 % of the workforce. And so it’s not even a small proportion. One fifth of the people here who are working are immigrants. And if you, you know, look at like this from an angle of like, how do you maximize the talent that you have? How do you, you know, really draw in diverse perspectives which studies have shown like lead to better decision -making and outcomes? Yeah. And it all points to that that companies should be more open to hire immigrants. And, and there’s, you know, a lot of research to around how, you know, immigrants for the for example in, you know, with advanced degrees or let’s say technology fields of which we’re in out earn their native born counterparts so they’re actually commanding higher wages because they have the skills that deaf people are looking for. So ultimately I was like, Hey, here’s a chance. There’s a significant proportion of the population that also share a goal of. You know, wanting to become successful and, you know, and, and establish their lives for themselves and their future generations in this country, who are some of the hardest working, more, most like inspiring, you know, folks. that you mean, like there’s no, I guess, coincidence that half of the Fortune 500 companies are being run by or founded by an immigrant or a child of one. So it’s like, yeah, it’s been clear that they’ve added a lot to the fabric of America or of any country. And so that’s like the good side, right? Like, yeah, it makes sense. It’s a large pool, great employees, why not? And this is the part that have made my new mission to try to change is that I, you know, meets tons of solo founders even, right? Or small companies or startups that hire immigrants because the one of the early employees that the founder is an immigrant and they understand that like the, about the importance. And I have met a hundred million dollar, multi -hundred million dollar, billion dollar companies who don’t sponsor immigrants because they think, have this perception that it’s more complex and more expensive. While those same companies are very open to hiring recruiters, right? And so it’s like companies are willing to pay money to get the talent that they need. And yet some of them exclude everyone who checks the box in the application, like tracking system that says, Oh, I’ll need like some sort of visa sponsorship. And it’s this perception part that I get that I hope to change, right? How basically is that we have built out the platform and process and journey that, yeah, I’ll never say it’s just as easy or as simple as hiring a native born American as a higher immigrant, but ultimately it is done in a way that it does not require any additional expertise, right? that you don’t need to hire explicit or dedicated HRT members to do immigration. And if they don’t have any immigration, that’s great because that’s what we’re here for. And so the same way that companies seem to be OK spending money on legal expertise in other fields or other types of services, I want to make it just so apparent that this is a very worthwhile and minimal investment compared to the talent that they’re getting. When I talk to companies, they’re like, oh, we’re hiring a senior engineer for, let’s say in the Seattle market, that’s like close to $200 ,000, but I’m balking at paying $2 ,000 for their immigration experience. You’re like, well, why, right? And this is like what we’re trying to work on And it’s like to make that why be less and less over time.
Sarah Wilkins
Yeah, yeah. And solving that problem of like, or the perception around the problem of going through the sponsorship, right? Like if you are able to make the process smoother, simpler, kind of not all the roadblocks that you may try to, if you’re going at it on your own or within a path, like why not?
Xiao Wang
And what’s interesting and fascinating is that like, I think that immigration really struggles from a marketing angle, right? And when you talk about immigration, right, that the immediate piece that people talk about or think about is like what’s going on in the Southern border. When, you know, we have tens of millions of immigrants in this country coming through all sorts of other means that are already here that are, you know, a bigger part of the economy, a bigger part of people’s day -to -day life. And then, but like the rhetoric and the media is always around like, you know, specific categories of immigration. The second part is around, especially in the technology field, there’s this concept around the H -1B lottery. So the H -1B program is a temporary work visa that a lot of folks in technology fields with advanced degrees can qualify for. And because there’s such a demand, which is a different, interesting nuance here, such a demand for them that you have 400 ,000 applications and they draw 85 ,000 by lottery. And so companies think that, oh, if I sponsor immigrants, then I may not even get them because they might not win the lottery and so they can’t work for us. Well, also they’re forgetting that there are, even within the H1B field, you know, 600 plus thousand of them to a million folks who are already here with the visas, right? And then tens of millions of immigrants with valid work visas. So I think people are sort of also lumping, you know, the two concepts together around this, like one unique channel for basically new college and grad school grads that does have a, you know, a drawing, a random factor into it with how do I hire or support hiring of people with already have this visa or other visas that I can actually work for my company. And to the point where like all of this is, yeah, what I enjoy watching is like Canada, for example, is I would say someone say just trolling the America right now, right? Where they have now passed the rule that, oh, hey, anyone who qualifies for these kinds of rules or like who could get a visa in the US can just get one in Canada. And it filled up in, I think like 24 or 48 hours for their first like 100 ,000 test cases of this. And so it’s clear that other countries are now sort of capitalizing on the US’s reticence to hire immigrants, employ immigrants, and are going to get a tremendous influx of talent because of it.
Sarah Wilkins
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I just hear people are like, oh, it’s too complicated. It’s too costly. We can’t do it, right? And so being able to kind of break that down as well, just like take away those barriers or that mindset, like that’s just the only thing I’ve ever heard is like, oh, and there are so many different types of visas, right? Not everybody knows about the various options available.
Xiao Wang
So, I mean, I think that that’s what gets me excited about work every day, right? Because it’s like, yeah, I think every job has its like good days and its bad days and all that. But in ours, even in the worst day, you’re like, not only, you know, I helped a dozen people like, you know, start their life today, or like, I helped educate, you know, a set of employers on like, what’s possible, or like, I help people, you know, who are laid off find even new opportunities. And so there’s like, so many, you know, where there’s just like, each, each, each outcome that we actually produce, has such a positive impact on the people’s lives that that makes all the bad, like, even the worst days at work feel pretty inspiring.
Sarah Wilkins
Yeah, the mission and what you’re able to do for people, right? I think that’s so inspiring. This has been really fun. I love seeing kind of your excitement and your energy and around this topic and how much employers could be doing and benefiting from, you know, considering sponsoring visas for immigrants. But yeah, what closing thoughts, you know, what one or two things do you want to, if they heard nothing else today, make sure that people take
Xiao Wang
away. At first, it’s like, it doesn’t need to be that hard, right? Like, and that’s why we invested in like technology in this process. Like, yes, there are multiple parties involved with immigration, especially on the business side, right? You have your recruiters, you have your hiring managers, you have your HR team, you have the employee themselves, you have attorneys, etc. But, you know, the idea is that we can make it and we can create a process where all of that is just done in the background, right? And that like, it’s all taken care of. And therefore, like, I just want to be given the chance. And I think that once you start hiring immigrants, you realize that, hey, this makes all the sense in the world, right? So I think that’s the first, and then the second part, yeah, as I think about, again, this broad construct of especially coming up in an election year, where immigration is frequently a cause of political divide, is that there are, I think, all of the talk around undocumented, around refugee and asylum, which are all very important concepts in context to America. So overshadows though, the 40 million immigrants that are currently here. And it is just as important for us to think about, hey, how can we create a country that in economic systems and policies and so forth that, you know, support the people that are already here as much as it like thinks about the tens or hundreds of thousands of people who are at the borders. And I would like those two topics to be separate, right? Like one is around, you know, reuniting families, creating jobs, and the efficient, if you wanted to go nerdy, distribution of talent in this country. And the other is around like the U .S.’s role and responsibilities in humanitarianism and supporting people in need. And the more that we can separate these two topics, the more attention can actually be focused on the first one, which is being sort of wildly overlooked, that can actually benefit the lives of millions of people here and of thousands of companies.
Sarah Wilkins
Well, thank you so much. This was really interesting to talk about, and I’m sure other people will find it that way as well and helpful. And I hope it spurs companies to think more seriously about how they can consider sponsorships and distribute talent accordingly in the in the US. So thank you.
Xiao Wang
Yeah, I really enjoyed the conversation. And obviously, if anyone is interested in going down this path, feel free to reach out and as members and listeners of this podcast, like we’re very happy to offer free legal consultation services to at least like help you think through what it could look like or what your current situations are.
Sarah Wilkins
Thank you so much, Xiao. That’s such a great offer. Have a great day.
Thank you for listening to this episode of Humans Beyond Resources. Visit ReverbPeople .com to find free resources, subscribe to our newsletter, and connect with our team. If you haven’t already, subscribe to stay up to date on all of our upcoming episodes. We look forward to having you as part of our community. Thank you again to our podcast sponsors. Joshua Brittingham of Kearney Bailey Spelman is a seasoned employment lawyer and he works with entrepreneurs and business leaders, especially in construction, hospitality, and financial services to help them handle sticky employee situations so they can thrive in a complex world. Joshua is also a professional speaker, panelist, and teacher on the topic of all things employment law. Parker, Smith & Feek is a nationally recognized, privately held brokerage firm. They offer a full range of services, including employee benefits, commercial and personal insurance and everything in between. The depth and breadth of their staff experience sets them apart as they provide stellar service and imaginative solutions for all clients. A .H .T. Insurance is an insurance, brokerage and consulting firm offering property and casualty, employee benefits retirement, private client, and international services for clients throughout the United States and 42 other countries. Supporting numerous industries and boasting national recognition in the technology, manufacturing, government contracting, and nonprofit practice areas, AHT offers clients highly customized solutions to identify and help mitigate risks they may face.
