The following is a transcript of our podcast conversation with Adrienne Kortas. You can listen to the full episode on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.
Sarah Wilkins
Hello and welcome to Humans Beyond Resources, an HR podcast by Reverb, where we cover topics from culture to compliance. Reverb believes that every decision a leader makes reverberates throughout the organization, from hiring your first employee to training your entire workforce. We believe in building healthy, inclusive culture settings. Engage your team. I’m your host, Sarah Wilkins. Today we’re talking about three critical skills managers need to lead their teams. At Reverb, we are passionate about helping managers hone their skills to effectively lead their teams. Whether you’re a first time manager or seasoned leader, it’s important to continually practice and hone your people leadership skills. I’m excited to be speaking with Adrienne Kortas, leadership coach and senior facilitator. Welcome, Adrienne. We are so excited to learn from you today.
Adrienne Kortas
I’m really excited to have the conversation with you, Sarah.
Sarah Wilkins
I can’t wait. So why don’t we just dive into some questions. What do you think are the three most important skills managers need to lead? And why would you say that they’re important?
Adrienne Kortas
This is such a great question. It’s at the same time a really challenging question to answer because out of all the skills a manager is expected to use to be effective, it’s really hard to come up with just the three that are most important. But at the same time, it’s actually a really good exercise to help you prioritize, right? And so much research has been done and it it’s one of those questions that you’ll get a different answer depending on who you ask. So, based on my experience, I’ve facilitated hours and hours of training for hundreds of executives. I have over 1000 hours of coaching under my belt, so I’ll speak from that experience. The first thing I think people are going to notice about you as a leader is what kind of a listener you are. So that gets baked into so many other important skills like coaching and facilitating meetings, how you influence others, and even how you negotiate. So number one, first and foremost, I would say, is listening. And this is what I like to say,is simple but not easy for a lot of leaders. Because what gets a lot of brilliant people into a manager role is the fact that they are experts on something, right? So that means they usually have a lot to say, they have a lot of great ideas, and they have a lot of experience to offer the people around them. Practically speaking, this means if you’re a good listener, you’ll become better at inquiry, asking good questions, coaching and facilitation because you’re creating space to listen and hear from others. So just keeping the focus on your listening skills, you’ll see positive impact in so many other areas.
Sarah Wilkins
I love how you pointed that out because you could think of listening as just like in a single conversation, how you are engaged in listening with one person. But I like how you pointed out that it will help with your coaching skills, with your facilitation skills, all of those things. Because like you said, as a manager now your job is to work with this team and make this team successful and not just be the expert in the room.
Adrienne Kortas
I’ll just add this tidbit. Whenever I have a leader or a manager or somebody asks me for advice on how to become a better listener, I say it starts with the belief that the other person in the conversation has something really important to say. So it’s really not even a tactical skill to improve. It starts internally with our own belief system that we need to start valuing the contributions and the thoughts and the opinions and the information and expertise of the people around us at least as much as what we think we have to contribute.
Sarah Wilkins
I love that. Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
Adrienne Kortas
Then I’ll keep going. So I think the second skill is related to productivity because it changes as you move up in leadership, the way that you get things done evolves. And so being clear and decisive about how we use our time, our attention and our energy and our resources will have an enormous impact on not just our level of success in getting things done, but also how satisfied we feel along the way. I’m sure you hear people talk about this, so I hear about it all the time, particularly these days, in reference to burnout. I hear people talking about burnout. I think it really comes down to having clarity about what you value, what you’re willing to allow to distract you or choose to put your focus on. And then it’s about how you role model that and guide your team in doing the same. So your productivity is something that doesn’t just matter for you and what you can get done and how you feel about it, but it’s also really important to role model that for your team. So this is something I end up discussing with nearly every single one of my coaching clients. And these are exceptionally bright people, so it’s not about how smart you are. And all of us know how to make a list of things that need to get done. All of us have heard the wisdom of blocking your calendar so you can get those things done right. So it’s not about that. It’s about making hard trade offs, about how you want to spend your time. And so the way you make those trade offs is recognizing when our values are aligned to the things we need to get done and when our values are changing and we need to make new decisions about what we’re going to give our attention to. So the real thing it comes down to is we’re often unable to notice when that’s happening. We’re unwilling to make those trade offs and that is what really makes it painful for us. We take it all on. We become overwhelmed and then that impacts our teams as well. So to be good at this, you have to be skilled at knowing why you do what you do. And as a manager, it’s so important to be able to communicate this with your teams.
Sarah Wilkins
Yeah, that made me think I like that you said modeling it. Right. So if I as a manager and trying to take all this on, I’m very overwhelmed. My team is going to think they need to do the same thing and then we’re all going to be burnt out and just maybe not achieving the results that we’re hoping for. And so I like the framing of productivity here because I think hurt a lot of people trying to get more productivity out of people and they’re not as productive at home and things like that. But really it comes down to setting those values and making sure that everything we’re doing aligns with that and when it doesn’t, stepping in and modeling that for your team as well. Yeah.
Adrienne Kortas
And this is another I’m going to reiterate this over and over, but as you get better at your productivity, it’s going to improve other important skills like having courageous conversations, communicating priorities, making decisions, being decisive right. Knowing what is important and how to prioritize. So all of that travels together with productivity. If you are going to be successful with this, you’re going to be better at those things as well.
Sarah Wilkins
I love how you picked these and you have these little nuggets of things that it really improves as well. So at face value it’s like productivity, but then really it’s all of these other things that it supports.
Adrienne Kortas
So the third skill that I think is really important for managers and leading others is just the ability to give ongoing feedback. And this comes in a variety of shapes and forms and depending on the person, what you’re giving feedback on, the skill, where the person is maybe in their learning curve for the thing you’re providing this feedback about. I’m a really big fan of situational leadership as a model to reference in framing the feedback we’re giving to people or identifying what we need to look for to offer feedback on. So if you’re not familiar with situational leadership, it’s looking at if somebody is brand new to a skill, they probably need more hands on direction from you and instruction on how to do this task or this skill that they are brand new to. Because it can be kind of scary getting started on something that’s brand new to you and then getting feedback on how they’re doing as they get started is really important also because that’s when we’re really unsure of ourselves, right? So as people are increasing their confidence in acquiring that skill, that’s when they need a lot of feedback too. So telling people what they’re doing well, autonomously and then where they could do even better in the future is really important as well. Don’t forget about your high performers either. People need to know what it is that they are bringing that’s valued by the team that’s valued to you as a leader and what’s going to grow them. Where are those learning edges and growing edges? And as a manager, it’s imperative that you develop a high performing team. So you need to look at your team across all of these different development levels. What skills are they acquiring, what skill gaps exist on my team? What feedback and coaching do I need to offer them in order to develop mastery on these things? Because the more that they can operate autonomously, the more engaged they’re going to be in their work. They’re going to feel good about what they’re doing. They’ll be happier as a result, they’ll be more self directed. They’ll see the results of their efforts, and you’ll see the results of their efforts. You’ll get better results from this high performing team, and you’ll have less work on your plate. This is how good leaders scale themselves. When other people then see that this is what you’re doing on your team, you’ll have an easier time attracting talent. Because high performers see a high performing team and a good leader who coaches and develops and gives feedback to their team. That’s a team they want to be on. So it’ll be easier to attract talent and promote from within your team. All of this starts with giving regular, ongoing feedback to help people develop their skills on the job.
Sarah Wilkins
Wow. Yeah. There were several things you pointed out how to continue to do those things that people are doing well and not just doing feedback whenever things maybe aren’t going as well. Right. So I like that you pointed that out. I also really like the situational leadership example, and I really have thought about this for myself over the last many years. And I’m like, You’ve got this. Here’s your role, run with it. Right. And I’ve learned over time based on where this person is in their career, I’ve had to change my leadership style and the way I support those individuals. So I just think it’s so important to point that out and how much more successful we both can be when you notice that and provide the right level of support based on where that person is.
Adrienne Kortas
Yeah, exactly. And it takes awareness from you as a manager about what it is you’re looking for and why and why does this matter. So you can communicate that with the feedback. Right. My wish for you is that you will go here with these skills that you’re developing, that this is the future ahead of you. So let me help you out right now. Here’s some feedback I have for you. So you have to have this awareness and intentionality if you’re going to make this feedback stick. A lot of people think that giving feedback is just very reactionary, waiting until you see somebody do something you don’t like or write that gets bad results, and then you give them the feedback on that thing. And I’m here to tell you that you’ll get much better results if you think about what you want to grow your people, how you want to grow your people, what matters to them, and then give feedback on that regularly.
Sarah Wilkins
That’s a great point. I love that. You kind of talked a little bit about this, but with these examples, what do these skills look like in practice?
Adrienne Kortas
Yeah. So examples are always helpful here, right? So with feedback, the example that I like to use here is I’m going to give examples based on my experience as a coach. I recently was working with a leader who needed to develop a team that had better writing skills and so that leader could spend less of her time on behalf of her team. So she had somebody that reported to her that she identified as the best person to develop this skill with because they communicated most effectively, not only in written form, but verbal form. And this would be a really great way to grow that strength and position them for promotion in a shorter time horizon. So she had that awareness of, who am I going to identify? Why does it matter for them? They’re getting closer to promotion. It’s a strength to build on. So she was able to communicate this to that direct report. I need to help you develop your writing skills because this is how it’s going to benefit you in the future. Then they got to work on how she developed those skills with this person. So I’m going to show you what it is that good looks like on their own and then bringing it back to her in their next one on one, where she was able to walk through it together with that person and give feedback. And there’s two different levels I want to share that pertains not only to this example, but feedback in general. And this is really helpful for people to think about as you move up in leadership, there’s item by item feedback. So as this woman is looking at this doc with her direct report, she’s going to point out certain words that she would change the structure of the doc, maybe what makes sense or what data is missing. That’s what I would call item level feedback. Right. That’s one way that you can offer feedback to somebody. But a very important way to offer feedback to your team when you are developing them to think more autonomously, work more autonomously, and do it the way you would do it is to give them feedback based on the way you think and the way you operate and sort of your guidelines that you use. So that was the other level that she offered feedback like, let’s step back from this doc and think about what we’re trying to accomplish. So she gave feedback at that level as well. And they did this over and over until this person and it wasn’t just this one assignment that got this person there. It was then the next time and then the next time. So it takes your energy, it takes your attention as a leader to do this well. Right. And that’s what I hear from people is I don’t have time to do this. But I would say, how could you not? Because this is how you’ll be successful, is if you can develop a high performing team, then you can step away from them and go focus on other things.
Sarah Wilkins
Absolutely. It is work. Right. And I was reading a report recently where I think it’s the state of the American Manager and most people don’t innately have these skills. I think it’s like one or two in ten people actually kind of have these skills. So back to it takes time. We have to build these because we don’t innately have them. So back to your point around productivity and prioritization and communication. All of that has to come in to be able to practice these things.
Adrienne Kortas
Yeah. And the listening, I would say the listening skill, I already gave you the example of believing that the other person or the other people have something important to say. And the listening piece really does start with an internal belief. So with each client I work with, it’s about tapping into what is it you need to tell yourself internally to quiet your own mind and invite the perspectives of others. So, like I said, some people have that internal script of the other person has something really important to say. Just recently, I worked with somebody who, in order to become a better listener, they imagined that they were in conversation with somebody, a family member that they deeply respected and admired and channeled that sense of creating space for that other people to talk. So just like for that family member, they would almost treat with some reverence and really give them the space to do the talking. They chose to channel. How would I show up for that person? Okay, I’m going to imagine that that’s the space I’m in when I go into this particular meeting in order to create space for others. So it’s different for everybody.
Sarah Wilkins
Yeah. And I was thinking, I’m sure people feel like burnout busy and listening can take time. They’re ready to move on to the next thing or they’re distracted with emails or slacks. But if you just start with that base belief, all of that stuff just kind of goes away or sits behind. Right. And like how you just implement that belief.
Adrienne Kortas
Well, you just led me back to productivity, which is here is a tip. If you are multitasking in a meeting, you probably should not be in that meeting because you are not asking anybody any questions while you’re checking your email. So you’re not listening. You’re not really listening. You’re not offering any feedback if you’re checking your email or answering a slack message or whatever it is you’re multitasking on. So you’re not offering any constructive point of view that’s going to move the meeting forward. So what are you doing there is what I would say. People spend so much time in meetings that they are not paying attention to that you either need to back up and decide, what kind of attention do I want to bring to this meeting because it’s worth it, or you need to not go to that meeting. And that’s what I need. By tough trade offs. Because people who are unwilling to make that trade off are the ones who are going to have way too many.
Sarah Wilkins
Meetings to go to, way too many meetings and then back to modeling it for your team. They’re kind of in the same situation, and you have a lot of meetings that are happening and nobody’s actually fully engaged in it, and you’re not moving the needle on anything in reality.
Adrienne Kortas
Right? Yeah.
Sarah Wilkins
So good. Thank you.
Adrienne Kortas
I have a lot of thoughts on these things. Sarah, I have a lot to say.
Sarah Wilkins
I love it. We maybe talked about this a little bit already, but how can you continue to develop or practice these skills?
Adrienne Kortas
Well, don’t just take my word for it, first of all, and it goes back to what I was saying before. You actually have to believe that these are important, that it’s going to benefit you and your team in some kind of way in order for us to actually exhibit these behaviors and improve these skills. And then it just takes conscious effort. Pick one thing that you’re going to get better at that’s going to make you an even better leader that would have the highest potential to either have an impact on your team or your business results and let your team know what you’re working on. Let the people around, you know, I’m trying to improve my listening skills. So I invite you to offer me feedback if I ever forget myself. Right. Invite people to give you specific feedback on whatever it is you’re working on. Or ask for it periodically. How have I been doing this last month on making tough trade offs and priorities or whatever it is you’re working on? Of course, I’d be remiss if I didn’t bring up coaching as an option. So beyond just your colleagues at work, it may help you to engage in some coaching. And that doesn’t always have to be a paid executive coach like what I do. It could be forming some kind of peer group where you’re going to do some peer coaching with people in different parts of the company Or see if your company does offer one on one coaching.
Sarah Wilkins
Yeah, those are great examples. And the one that really resonates with me is what I like to do is just tell people what I’m working on. Like, hey, I’m working on X. If you see me doing Y, please let me know. I would love and invite that feedback, not just my peers, direct reports, my manager, so everyone kind of knows what I’m working on. So I think that’s important. Yeah, I’m sure you have tons of resources on how people can, once you believe that these are important and you want to work on it, what resources may be on kind of the coaching and what you just shared in the last example on practicing, what other resources would you share?
Adrienne Kortas
So when it comes to resources that support your learning, you really kind of need to know what your style is and preferences and what helps you most. And I always ask my clients this because I’m not going to recommend a book to somebody that only lets them pile up on a shelf or that would never crack a book to save their lives. Right. So I’ll offer you some book ideas, but know yourself first and foremost, what’s the best way for you to learn something. And so it may not be reading anything, it might be one on one relationships. So go get yourself a mentor or go get yourself a coach if you’re trying to improve a skill like one that I just mentioned is important. So listening, productivity or giving feedback, go find somebody that you work with who does that really well and just sit down with them. It doesn’t mean you have to set up some kind of long term relationship where you’re going to meet on some recurring basis and it’s going to be a recurring appointment on your calendar. It doesn’t have to be that formal. Just sit down with them and talk about like, what’s their mindset about that, what do they think about what systems and habits do they have around that, or what practices do they use? Do they have any tools or templates to share with you? If you’re a one on one kind of a person, that’s the best way to learn. Set up a relationship like that with somebody who can give you ideas. Maybe not just with one person, but a whole lot of people who are good at that skill. I mentioned coaching. Of course, coaching is another one on one type of way that you could get better at a skill like this. But then if you’re into videos, there are tons of videos online that you can check out. There’s online learning that you can check out in all kinds of ways.
Sarah Wilkins
Absolutely. Thank you. And then this has been such a fun conversation. What one thing would you leave managers to work on today related to what we’ve talked about?
Adrienne Kortas
Okay, so I recently got this idea from a post on LinkedIn from one of our colleagues, James, and so I want to share this because I think it is just so good. Most people are going to leave their jobs in the next 18 months based on the environment we are in right now. Or how about this? A lot of people are going to leave their jobs in the next 18 months based on the environment we’re in. And if this feels like it might be you, then you need to ask yourself, what are the three things that I really need to develop or grow while I’m here? What is it that I really need to get out of the next 18 months as a leader? And make sure every day you check in with yourself, how am I having a meaningful impact on growing myself in those areas? What am I doing to give attention to those things? What am I practicing? Just check in with yourself every day to see how you’re doing, what kind of attention you’re giving to them. I thought that was just such a brilliant, such brilliant advice. And so I’m going to amplify that.
Sarah Wilkins
Thank you for sharing that. And thank you, James, for originally sharing it as well. Thank you so much. Adrienne, I love how you highlighted these three skills around listening, productivity, and ongoing feedback and how they encompass so many other things with communication and facilitation and coaching that managers can really work on. So thank you. Thank you so much for sharing everything. I love all your examples and how people you’ve coached been able to kind of develop these skills further. And the examples are so helpful because I know people can take those.
