The following is a transcript of our podcast conversation with Sarah Wilkins and Tucker Miller. You can listen to the full episode on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.
Sarah Wilkins
Hello and welcome to Humans Beyond Resources, an HR podcast by Reverb where we cover topics from culture to compliance. Reverb believes that every decision a leader makes reverberates throughout the organization, from hiring your first employee to training your entire workforce. We believe in building healthy, inclusive cultures that engage your team. I’m your host, Sarah Wilkins. Thank you to our Humans Beyond Resources podcast sponsors, Parker Smith & Feek, AHT, and Joshua Brittingham of Carney, Badley & Spelman.
Very excited to have Tucker Miller joining us today on the Humans Beyond Resources podcast. Tucker is a former attorney, executive coach, and author of The First Four Words. I’m very excited to hear more about Tucker’s background and what spurred her to write this book. Welcome, Tucker. Thank you very much. It’s so nice to be here, Sarah. Well, first, let’s start just by getting to know you a little bit more. Can you share a little bit more about your background and then what spurred you to write this book?
Tucker Miller
Well, my background, I am still an attorney. I no longer practice. I was a trial attorney when I started and it was a great start. It was a great education, but increasingly, I kept looking at all the attorneys around me, and I couldn’t find any that were really having a great time. And I remember getting in the elevator as a young attorney, and I had my little leather briefcase, and the senior attorneys had the same briefcase, only it was like four times the size. And we were walking out together, and I thought, if that’s what advancement looks like, I don’t think I’m interested in it. But But along the way, I also met another trial attorney, we’re married, we’ve been married for over 30 years. And both of us have found careers that are benefited very significantly by our legal background, but are different than the careers they ever told us we could have. So I actually found my way through employee relations, human resources, training, corporate training with clients, and now I’m doing executive coaching. So I maintain my license largely to remind myself. I don’t want to go back to practicing, but I love attorneys I speak attorney. I love attorneys. I love business. So this is the right spot for me right now
Sarah Wilkins
Awesome. Yeah, I also love attorneys and getting to talk to them and understanding risk and you know those types of things It’s such a great and super helpful for HR leaders like myself and our team to have that partnership with those individuals, for sure.
Tucker Miller
It makes me happy to hear people talk about it as a partnership because sometimes there’s sort of opposites and usually there is a place of common ground, but you know, that’s part of the work is finding the place where we can engage in productive discourse and collaboration. And that’s really the reason why I do the work that I do now because it’s really finding a voice and finding ways to work together as opposed to being in conflict all the time.
Sarah Wilkins
Absolutely. Well, that’s great. Well, thanks so much for sharing more about your background. You know, we started by sharing that you’re an author of The First Four Words, which is just coming out for presale. Tell me a little bit more about the book and why you chose to write it.
Tucker Miller
Well, I’ve been in business for over 30 years. And as I said, I started, you know, within a litigation practice. So you start with everything that’s broken down. But over my time in working with business leaders and really talking with people one -on -one and in groups, I found that so much of what was problematic and where the conflicts were, were just simply the conversations that people weren’t having. It’s all the conversations we’ve made up already in our minds about, if I brought this up, I know how it’s going, then they’re gonna say that. and it becomes sort of the reason for why not to have the conversation. And then you’re just left with these festering unresolved issues where we’re really not moving forward. So I found myself, you know, watching executives time and time again, not having these conversations. And I thought, what is the minimum viable product that would get them engaged? You know, what’s the smallest amount of words that could be effective, not abrupt, but effective in moving us off of our own reasons and positions and maybe getting more curious about trying things out. So the first four words is how to start conversations with ease and confidence. And I work a lot with women executives in particular who are looking for more ways to advocate for themselves. And I asked the question of myself, how could we do it easily? What would it be? So I don’t know if you’re old enough to know this, but there used to be a game show called Name That Tune. Someone told me it might be coming back. But I’m very encouraged that you go, yeah, I know that one. So there was a part in that game show where it said they would have the contestants say, I could name that tune in eight notes and someone would say six. And that got me kind of thinking because once you start to make it a game, we move out of reasons why not into thinking about what if. there was that possibility of, if I experimented with this, might it work? So I started listing and writing down things that people would say and what was effective, trying to find what that sweet spot was. And I found pretty quickly, four words more often than not was all it took to move from resistance or fear to the possibility and ultimately the desire to find out if we’re right. You know, I have this idea of something I could say. I wonder if I’m right. And then they go into experimentation. So it was just a piece to get us started because increasingly too, I noticed that once the conversation started, they have the conversation. The biggest barrier was not how they thought the conversation would go. The barrier was in not believing that they could effectively start it. So once I started playing with this, people wanted to play along. And then we started kind of moving and I thought, you know, there might be a book in this. So that’s how I happen to write the book.
Sarah Wilkins
That’s wonderful. Yeah. And that’s so prevalent, the feedback or having a conversation or having this idea of like conflict, and it just kind of ruminating without anything happening or a lot of like talking happening behind the scenes, but not having those direct conversations. And it is, you know, it can be challenging, because I think people want to be kind or people, You know, don’t want to be rude, but in reality, it’s more kind to kind of be direct and go there. But I like that there’s a frame, you know, just the first four words, like just starting the conversation. Yeah.
Tucker Miller
And I think you took a quote right out of the book. You haven’t seen the book, but you know, brevity is kind because what would happen sometimes is when I would work with clients to get them to engage in a conversation, they would get either apologetic or nervous or they would say all these soft words where they weren’t really getting the point across and at some point somebody shuts down. So I just had someone tell me that she’d read through the introduction of the book and she went back to this email that that had been in process that she’d been writing before she read what I had written. And she’d had this multiple paragraph email that she had written to explain to this person yet again, over many months, how they weren’t doing the thing the way they were supposed to do it, and the level of frustration was peaking. And she said she went back to that email and erased the whole thing. And she just wrote, this is not acceptable. And the person immediately wrote back and wanted to talk and engage. And I think what had been happened is there was just all this explanation that really wasn’t bringing them together. And when she got really clear and kind enough, they started to have the conversation that they really needed to have to realign.
Sarah Wilkins
Yeah, absolutely. Well, we’re kind of going into, you know, some of the examples, but you just shared one right now. But can you give me some more examples of forward phrases that people could use to start a conversation as you were going through this process? Sure.
Tucker Miller
You know, and everything that I’m going to suggest also suggests there’s some forward phrases that let’s just acknowledge. I’ll save you the trouble. They’re never going to work. Oh, my dead body is not going to take you very far. So when we’re talking about forward phrases, it’s not the magic and the four, it’s the four that you choose. And I was talking about this concept with a colleague and he says, I just don’t understand, you know, how would it even work? Can you give me an example, just as you said? And I said, let’s have a conversation. And he just sat back and he said, that would work. And it was so Simple, you know, it’s just so fun to see a space transformed by it, but I would like some feedback. Really simple, you know, inviting people to the question or let’s create an agenda. You know, let’s work together. So just really simple phrases. I just had, I was on a flight and I was sitting next to someone, of course, I’m not going to talk during the flight. I don’t want to talk during the flight. I have things to do. She has things to do. But I turned to her and we ended up having a two and a half hour conversation. She’s now a client. And I looked back and I thought, how did that conversation happen? Because I wasn’t looking to have it. And I’m sure she wasn’t. We both had laptops on. And it started with, I like your shoes. Both kind of laughed about later, how did we get here? And I said, I think it started with be saying I like the shoes and how we got to where we got. I don’t know, but it was also, I think, an indicator of the times. People are hungry for connection. They’re looking for people to talk to, some common experiences. So once we get out of our own way of, I don’t wanna bother this person, or this might be weird, or what will they think of me, the things that start the conversation are actually pretty simple.
Sarah Wilkins
Why do you think that works?
Tucker Miller
Isn’t that funny? I think, um, it’s such a simple concept. It’s almost unbelievable. And people engage part of the time to prove me wrong. And then they say, it’s right. It’s like, that’ll never work. Well, that works. And I had, um, I have noticed when I throw it out there to people and they’re like, huh, you know, disbelief, impossibility, they’ll start talking and they’ll start counting with their fingers. So our podcast listeners probably can’t see that, but I’ll just notice them sort of counting on their thumb and they’re like, oh, there’s one. Oh, there’s one. You know, it’s interesting. And I said, it’s not that four is perfect, but four is enough to get you out of your own way to start thinking about what might work. That’s the magic of it. And I was finishing the book and ending it, I thought, well, I already know what the second book is gonna be, five more words. Because you immediately think, ah, that would have been a great thing to say, oh, but it’s five or it’s six. And at the end of the day, it really doesn’t matter. What matters is that you found a way to start to think about possibility, get out of your own way with less fear, And then be curious, you know, it’s that little nudge of empowerment and courage that gives people a chance to action their curiosity about what if there was a way to have a nice connection.
Sarah Wilkins
Yeah, I mean, I like that and I think makes it simple, right to I mean, start a fun conversation like I like your shoes, but also when you are struggling to address something, you know, with someone, right, whether it’s a difficult feedback conversation, or, you know, a difficult kind of realignment conversation of some sort, right. But I see all the time people just struggling to figure out how to get that started, right, or what to say, and that kind of thing. Just kind of framing it in a simple way to allow you to get the conversation started
Tucker Miller
and be curious as to what’s next. Absolutely. And I did write the book with leaders in mind. So I thought about some of those more difficult contexts. How do we create consensus? How do we get realigned? How do I give you performance feedback that might be difficult? How do I build your trust? Those are examples that are also in the book so that people can have a few things that might be just ready -made in their toolkits that they commit to or have a few notes that they would commit to. So it’s conceptually helpful in a variety of situations and I’ve written about those situations too. But then having some standbys, I love talking with Alita recently, he said, I know it’s just to be engaging and active listening, but it is so hard when I already know the answer. It’s like classic, you know? And I said, well, let’s come up with a few phrases, a few questions that you could use to just kind of help illuminate for the other person, but also help you slow down a little bit. And, you know, we just worked through and ultimately I provide examples in the book, but it’s the phrases that are individual that’s gonna have the biggest impact.
Sarah Wilkins
Yeah, absolutely. Obviously, this seems super easy and you gave some examples of how simple it was to start a conversation, but why, in your experience, why don’t people do it more often or what gets in the way of doing it?
Tucker Miller
I was working with a client just recently and she just had the whole story of, well, if I say this, then they’ll say that, And some of it’s built on actual experiences. So there’s, you know, I’m not gonna question the validity of the concern here, but I said, let’s look at how that conversation started and how you might start this one. Is there sort of a different approach? And sometimes those conversations that we use as evidence for why not to have the conversation or walk away have started out with, you were a real jerk. you know, they’ve started out a little more intense, and that when we look at how we could have the conversation differently, how can we navigate it a little bit clearer, a little bit kinder, a little bit more firmly, but softening without accusing, but still getting the point across, that opens up the door. So some of the resistance is, we just didn’t know as much as we know now, and maybe there’s a better way to start it, but oftentimes people think it didn’t go well that one time. That person is not someone I can talk to. You know, I said this, they did that, we’re done, we’ll never talk again. And so the whole process of thinking about an easier, simpler approach, not only does it make it easier for you to enter into the conversation, as you referenced earlier, it makes it easier to hear why we’re talking. And it does lead to some different outcomes with that. So it seems so simple, why not try it? But there’s a lot of nuance associated with it too, to get people beyond what they think they already know and start believing in a different possibility. That’s the part I like about it. It’s very hopeful and it does create different outcomes. And of course, everyone has agency here. if it’s not working better, use an abort mission at any time or go seek other support. There are other ways to resolve it. But what if you had a different approach? What if you could make it simpler? What if you could feel more confident? So this shows up in so many parts of life, networking events, other kinds of challenges. There are lots of ways to practice the concept before you take on your hardest challenge. So you can kind of build the muscle a little bit. And see what works
Sarah Wilkins
Yeah, I was gonna ask about other places and I like you already shared with the airplane and just having a conversation with somebody But I’m a networking event, right? those can be really hard for people especially if you’re going into like a new environment and Just having that like easy thing to go to to tell people Yeah, or a competition and just explore and be curious about that person that you’re getting to meet right and you know
Tucker Miller
less worried about yourself and having some ready things that you can say to kind of get things started. I like your shoes. So, which was so not planned, but it ended up being so amazing. I thought it’s as simple as that. The other place that I write about in the book is, you know, what do we say to people when there’s been some sort of setback? You know, they may be experiencing any number of challenges or griefs and those are the places that We could really provide some comfort and support and connections, but oftentimes our own discomfort of not only not knowing what to say, but the fear of saying the wrong thing often leads people to saying no thing, and that nothing said communicates volumes at times. And so I tackle that as well. What can we say to people when there’s been a tragedy? And it may be at work, it may be in life, but those are the ways that we weave a better fabric together as a community. And so if there were ways for us to provide some support, what would be some things that you could have ready? And, and then when it comes up, you don’t run for cover, you think, here’s something that might help.
Sarah Wilkins
Yeah. I love that you pointed that out and I love that you said, um, saying nothing speaks volumes as well, right? In a lot of these instances. And so saying something and having, you know, yourself prepared to do that, I think is important because it’s saying nothing also can be very damaging or hurtful or, you know, so I think it’s important.
Tucker Miller
I think there’s some a Couple of outdated rules that many of us grew up with like to be of nothing nice to say don’t say anything at all It’s like we’re not talking about nice for time at kind So that’s a little bit different and kindness is saying the thing that might otherwise be a barrier for us the other thing is, you know, I just want to treat people the way I want to be treated and When we stop to ask more of the questions simply, but really endeavor to understand what would be meaningful to the other. The bottom rule, that’s what really starts to build stronger relationships. And when you’re in a leadership position, that is currency, that’s your credibility right there is the kind of person that shows up caring about people, being kind, being clear, being firm. And so providing people with more tools for those conversations was definitely a goal in writing the book.
Sarah Wilkins
Absolutely. Yeah, I just those two things I was just thinking about is that kind of the crux of some of the feedback problems we have in our environments today is kind of that learning that we had. I never put that together. But when you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all. But in reality, saying something is kind, it’s
Tucker Miller
clear you know what happens a lot of times and this is when I would see people just say I don’t know what to say I don’t know how to I’m just I don’t know what to say and you know no matter how many advanced degrees they had they would say I don’t know what to say and so they wouldn’t say anything until it started to fester and then you know it blows up then it’s going to blow up with one person to the other, and that is not the conversation anyone really intended to have, but all this other stuff comes out. So you kind of want to stay ahead of that festering wound, you know, how can I really get to heal it before it becomes more festering?
Sarah Wilkins
Absolutely. Yeah, I think that’s so important, not let it fester, right? Yeah, you start to see all the dysfunction that can happen and toxicity at work and things like that. And so it’s so important to get ahead of those things. Right. Right. And easy. It really can be easier than we think. It can be, right? But there is this thought in our head that it’s really hard, right? And I think, you know, we see every day like well -meaning people and like avoiding conflict, right? Or like the possibility of conflict, but going into something with some curiosity. And And I think there was something you said earlier, it’s all about the stories we tell ourselves in our head, right? And I have thought about that a lot and yeah, Renee Brown is coming out a lot with the stories we tell ourself and clear as kind and things like that, but yeah, I think that story we tell ourselves can get in the way a lot of just having the conversation, right?
Tucker Miller
So many things. Yeah. So many things. we we I always think about this when I was a trial attorney the the most unreliable evidence you could put in front of a jury was eyewitness testimony which we think is really factual but it’s so informed but we by what we thought we saw or what we think should have happened or I don’t really recall but I bet it was like this and it’s all being told as fact and when you start to listen And we all do that all the time. And, you know, I was thinking about what are a few simple questions I can ask to just inspect the reality and be open to somebody else’s reality of being equally valid and valuable as mine so that we can kind of come together with something more meaningful together. Inspecting those stories becomes really an important part of the whole process. And it’s fun. And that’s the part, the whole point of the book too is what if we just lighten up a little bit? Not every conversation has to be difficult and hard. What if there was a way to just approach this and think it was kind of fun or invite other people to play along? And that was one of the things when I was first thinking about this idea, I came home and I told my family, it was during the pandemic, so we were all home together. I had college age kids and they were home and I got a big piece of white paper I put it on the dining room table and I said, here’s the concept. Everyone take the pen. Let’s see how many forward phrases we can come up with. And we just left it on the table and kept adding to it. And I was like, there’s something here that is, if even, if even my family will play along, there’s something here. And it was, it was a lot of fun. And we did tests. We, we didn’t all agree on the forward phrases, which was totally fun. Why, why not? Tone of voice makes a big difference. So we discovered that too. That’s fun.
Sarah Wilkins
Yeah, yeah, does really play into a lot of how we perceive something. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, well, this was really fun. I love this conversation. Love talking about conflicts at work or even just being able to kind of have a conversation as a person who loves to connect with others. I am sure I can find some useful phrases and helpful things in the book as well. Anything else you would say that we didn’t cover that you want to make sure people know about your work in the space and, you know, when will it be available and where can I
Tucker Miller
Oh, I’m excited about that. So I have a curated list that I am adding to my website. So if people are like, I don’t even know what I would say or what are some examples, they could go to my website on wordleadership .com and there will be a place to say, I would like to see that list. So that’s a quick way. But if you want to order the book, and I hope you will, that will be available for presale in mid May, and then published and available at all the places you would buy books, local bookstores and with your click. That is mid July around July 9, this one is scheduled to come out. And I’ll be doing I’m in Seattle area. So I’ll be having some signings in the local area and I’ll post those on my website as well.
Sarah Wilkins
That’s really exciting. I’m so excited for the book to come out and for others to get something from it, either the forward phrases from your website or reading the book and learning more. So thank you so much for joining and having the conversation. It was really fun for me. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of Humans Beyond Resources. Visit ReverbPeople .com to find free resources, subscribe to our newsletter, and connect with our team. If you haven’t already, subscribe to stay up -to -date on all of our upcoming episodes. We look forward to having you as part of our community.
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